tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post2563149372088591740..comments2023-10-31T07:32:11.739-04:00Comments on Wormtalk and Slugspeak: Michaelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07566889846240013567noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-8026323116328427782007-09-29T07:22:00.000-04:002007-09-29T07:22:00.000-04:00John- not necessarily. Maybe it's just me, but I *...John- not necessarily. Maybe it's just me, but I *love* the oddities of semantic shifts... The fact that "heap" means "band of warriors" tickles me pink. I have a good giggle every time i think of "a heap of warriors coming down the hill".<BR/>Point is, if you *teach* semantic shift as well as sound shifts, if you can convince even a few students that language as a wonderful and slippery thing, then sound shifts will be part of that. If i can tie a word to its descendant, i get a sort of mental chain forming from the original meaning to the modern. And hey presto, because i know what it turned into, i never forget how it started out. Roundabouts *and* swings!highlyeccentrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049193555531624608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-59320669388197515452007-09-19T14:23:00.000-04:002007-09-19T14:23:00.000-04:00The classical (and Classical) objection to learnin...The classical (and Classical) objection to learning words by etymology is that it doesn't allow for semantic shift, and can cause students to mis-learn meanings. As obvious examples, gleaned indeed from Skeat, <I>téam</I> does not mean 'team' (for the most part), <I>cwealm</I> does not mean 'qualm' (which may indeed be a separate word), <I>bót</I> does not mean 'boot' (except in the frozen expression 'to boot'), and so on.<BR/><BR/>So it may be that what you gain on the roundabouts, you lose on the swings here.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-23636367996520821142007-09-17T04:15:00.000-04:002007-09-17T04:15:00.000-04:00I do this when I teach Old English. The other sou...I do this when I teach Old English. The other sound change that helps the most with modern English is OE u > modE 'ow' (cu > cow, nu > now, mus > mouse, etc.)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03177992281206275818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-46689132024006541692007-09-14T11:50:00.000-04:002007-09-14T11:50:00.000-04:00I think this method would certainly work when teac...I think this method would certainly work when teaching Old English to college students - in fact, it's how I first began to learn OE. <BR/><BR/>The Anglo-Saxonist at my previous institution had made a course packet that included lists of OE words that would undergo the vowel shift, grouped into categories like "familial relations," and "domesticated animals." We would begin every class for the first several weeks by going around the classroom and reading through one of the small lists, and then guessing what the word meant. <BR/>I found that starting with a paradigm for interpretation like that meant that as new words that fit the paradigm were introduced, it was very easy for me to figure out what the modern English equivalent was.Ecce Equus Pallidushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17636956975047785616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-44848731208131757732007-09-12T21:45:00.000-04:002007-09-12T21:45:00.000-04:00Mitchell does this a bit in his _Invitation to OE ...Mitchell does this a bit in his _Invitation to OE and ASE_ (see p. 27), but he doesn't include an extended set of tables as you're describing. I do remember doing a bit of that in undergraduate OE. We for instance were given the phrase "hu nu brun cu", and I still use this on my own students!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901254957730014671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-73468579339672189072007-09-12T20:26:00.000-04:002007-09-12T20:26:00.000-04:00Take care of yourself. My duties as chair helped ...Take care of yourself. My duties as chair helped make me very, very ill.Steve Muhlbergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18136005762428407135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-35052735872494284532007-09-12T15:34:00.000-04:002007-09-12T15:34:00.000-04:00Mike, I think formalizing this into a sort of lear...Mike, I think formalizing this into a sort of learning game is a great idea. After all, it works with a 7-year-old for a reason! Put more bluntly: it’s just like training a dog — conditioned stimulus/response. And a college student has to be at least as smart as a dog (unless that dog is <A HREF="http://www.skidboot.com/" REL="nofollow">Skidboot</A>). ;)<BR/><BR/>You asked whether anybody else has taken this approach. I don’t have my full library with me on my back here at work, but I know I’ve seen this technique employed in more than one place — though I’m not sure if it was in a <I>grammar</I> book. Happily, though, I do have one at hand, so I can tell you that right around the same time as Skeat’s book, Henry Sweet wrote something very similar in his <I>History of English Sounds</I>, 1888. In fact, Sweet’s version is a little bit more like your own. Where Skeat writes up just a few examples is a wordier paragraph format, Sweet presents a much more systematic series of tables, organized by vowel, in four columns: Old English > Middle English > Modern English > Modern Pronunciation (because so often unclear from the spelling). For the section on <I>ā</I> which includes most of the first examples from your list, see pp.335–41. The full word-lists run for about a hundred pages near the end of the book.<BR/><BR/>For reference: Sweet, Henry. <I>A History of English Sounds From the Earliest Period with Full Word-lists</I>. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1888.<BR/><BR/>Keep us posted on how well it works! I expect to hear it’s a real breakthrough. :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-30870016180266655062007-09-12T06:28:00.000-04:002007-09-12T06:28:00.000-04:00I think this is an excellent idea!Of course, Papal...I think this is an excellent idea!<BR/><BR/>Of course, Papal and Papacy are vowel-shifted - just a different shift :)Tirunculahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788199657297216288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-75126287098246100632007-09-11T22:35:00.000-04:002007-09-11T22:35:00.000-04:00Seems like a great idea to me. And it'll have the ...Seems like a great idea to me. And it'll have the extra benefit of reinforcing the correct pronunciation of OE vowels!heu mihihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08529298049179816825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-41780865912820448162007-09-11T20:10:00.000-04:002007-09-11T20:10:00.000-04:00WOW!i feel so englightened now :) That's something...WOW!<BR/><BR/>i feel so englightened now :) That's something i've had a feel for for as long as I've been studying this, but I didn't realise there was a set of organising principles.<BR/><BR/>Excitement.<BR/><BR/>Thank you, Prof. Drout!highlyeccentrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049193555531624608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-85663155630333774422007-09-11T20:02:00.000-04:002007-09-11T20:02:00.000-04:00Ah, posting in too much haste. I should have sai...Ah, posting in too much haste. I should have said that A-S "Papa" = "Pope" is a direct borrowing of Latin "Papa" = father. I was thinking just as I was writing it as "Pap-setl," = "Papal Seat." But I'll change to "Papa" = "Pope" in the list.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07566889846240013567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-8490553395310913032007-09-11T19:58:00.000-04:002007-09-11T19:58:00.000-04:00"Pap" gets borrowed directly from Latin very early..."Pap" gets borrowed directly from Latin very early; we know this because it goes through the vowel shift to become "Pope." Because "Papal" and "Papacy" are borrowed much later, they aren't vowel-shifted.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07566889846240013567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3571309.post-85837553071807702262007-09-11T19:54:00.000-04:002007-09-11T19:54:00.000-04:00Does pap=pope really work? Or is it a Latin thing...Does pap=pope really work? Or is it a Latin thing? (or does that matter?) I think I remember something of this variety in an old Norse textbook, but I can't be sure.Another Damned Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05231085915472400163noreply@blogger.com